First Part Chorale: Wer hat dich so geschlagen. First Part Aria: Ach, mein Sinn. Second Part Chorale: Christus, der uns selig macht. Second Part Arioso: Betrachte, meine Seel. Second Part Chorale: Er nahm alles wohl in acht. Second Part Recitative: Und von Stund an. Second Part Aria: Es ist vollbracht. Second Part Recitative: Und neigte das Haupt.
- Split Second (Split Second 1)!
- Message from Space;
- St John Passion.
I'm not convinced that we have to ascribe such Rossini-like haste to Bach. I find it more credible that Bach's compositional process paralleled the literary development. In fact, I think it more credible that his musical ideas were determinative in the shape of the libretto. Peter Smaill wrote April 3, : St.
In at the centenary conference at Princeton in honour of the late Arthue Mendel , William Scheide gave a fascinating talk as to the numerical meaning of the sections of the work. This analysis, because of the need to manipulate the normally accepted computation of the sections, had not played a major part in Bach scholarship , unlike the "Herzestuck" chiastic disposition of the work developed by Smend. However, since decting that the apocryphal St Luke Passion has three movements, including the most important aria, the Tenor's n.
Or is it all just coincidence? Douglas Cowling wrote April 3, : St. I was intrigued when you spoke of the numbers revealing a "personal relationship" with the Passion music. That would bring the numbers into a similar position as the chorales in which the listener identifies with the narrative through faith and emotion. I hate to admit it but numerological expositions bore me to tears.
Has this "personal relationship" dimension been discussed by scholars? It's like the discussion on the Four-Fold Allegory and Bach's compositional process. It can be an historical key to a better understanding of the complexities and varied perspectives on JSB. One man's boredom is another's provocation. One man's floatsam and jetsam is another's treasure. The "Bach Code" is just another permutation of that.
Fool around with numbers long enough, you can get them to say anything you think you want them to say. Statistically however the number of observations made in Bach, and the abundant evidence of numerology as a feature of the late Renaissance and Baroque , indicate very strongly that there is an undercurrent of numerology and certainly a use of proportion in structure.
The scholars Hirsch and Tatlow, though the latter is often sceptical of many of the claims, cannot easily be disregarded for that reason. Nor is there a "Bach Code" as such, the use of these symbolic devices applies to many individuals and poetical works, not just Bach and his music. No one doubts that the final Contrapunctus in the Kd F represents BACH actually originally contrived by Johann Nicholaus Bach , so why consider that there may not be other instances of self-referentiality?
My own position was that of deep scepticism when first reading of symbolism in Bach and thus I sympathise that on a musical level, the ear cannot connect to what may be at work. Over the years the fact that great scholars such as Smend and Scheide also find striking patterns, sometimes mistakenly but often not, leaves this aspect of Bach open to further observation. But the music qua music, why yes, that always comes first. Happy Easter! Philip Pickett's writing about the Brandenburgs and numbers is fantastic stuff, truly! But doing crazy things with the passions to see if they spell out Bach's name is just over the top.
There are signs the St. John's passion was written with quite a bit of haste, given the amount of later revisions, so was Bach keeping track of all these numbers while trying to meet an important deadline? Thanks and have a nice holiday! Certainly the interpretation of 14 and 41 as self-referential is appealing, with the added charm of the transposition.
What we do know is that Bach had an interest in numbers , that he used aspects of his own name in his music and that certain other associations are perfectly obvious e. What we don't know, bcause he didn't tell us, is how deeply Bach went into or made use of such associations as a part of his creative processes. Two of the 'arguments' of dismissal used in this list I would challenge strongly. The first is that such references are of no interest or are unimportant because you can't hear them.
I wonder if people who say this are confident that they can hear and follow accurately all the permutations of tone rows in the serial music of the C Music is what it is and there are many examples where the most astute listener cannot hear everything that is going on but then, why he should he?. Bach's congregations, who heard the music once perhaps in five years and lacked access to the scores we have today would hacv noticed much less than we are able to do nowadays. The second 'argument' is that Bach was so busy writing the stuff, why would he give himself the extra hassles of making these abstruse number associations.
This is, I would suggest, to put the cart before the horse and to to misunderstand the fact that he almost certainly made use of such associations as a stimulous to his imagination e. In the same way his construction of many of the cantata's main themes from images taken from the text were probably not intended to be recognised by all and sundry; they were a stimulus to his imagination. Obviousit is possible to take numeralogical associations to a point of absurdity. John For those who may have missed this when I posted it a couple of weeks back: 'Bach St.
The entire work in twelve sections! Including subtitles in English! The sustained drama of the opening chorus is electrifying, as usual in good performances. The ensemble, including 16 vocalists and soloists, looks great! The murmuring, ominous, upper strings are heard throughout, not always the case in period performances. In the final chorus, Suzuki has somes marvellous, expressive touches, eg, highlighting the flutes while quietening the violins in the last few bars of the ritornello, and contrasting dynamics on the repetitions of "Ruht wohl".
One thing I hadn't noticed before, just before the da capo in 'Ruht wohl', the vocal basses and continuo drop out except for two separated bars of continuo highlighting the upper voices and instruments to the words "the grave contains no further want, opens heaven for me, and closes hell"; and the entire upper ensemble minus basses and continuo comes to rest on the same unison Eb Eb on the bottom line of the treble clef. Briefly, in other movements: 'Zerfliesse' is stunning. The turbae choruses are amazingly accurate and dramatic.
All vocal soloists are exceptionally pleasing. I hope you have reasonably fast broadband! For those who would like to demonstrate the validity of numerology analysis, better to err on the side of caution? Some teenagers would write or paint their nick name on any wall or other support they encounter, but this often expresses their need to be recognised as an individual also in their own eyes.
I can hardly imagine this kind of motivation in Bach's creations. We know that he wrote "soli deo gloria" on some scores. Would numerology prove that he actually had a double language when writing with numbers? The first time through, rather than an explosive "Herr, Herr, Herr", the tension pulls back almost into a sorrowful plea of help from the chorus by being restrained and gentle. The second time through is when the strength is displayed. The balance of the flutes is interesting too, where they seem more "twisty" than straight lines if that makes sense.
I am going to continue to listen to the rest of the recording, but this opening chorus always astounds me. Additional analyis by some, then associates any pattern of adjacent falling minor seconds with the cross. By extension, any four-note pattern can be construed as a cross unless all four notes are the same, making a line. Where to draw the line heh on this analysis?
John] Neil, thanks for the links. Suzuki is amazingly consistant in high quality and interpretation and this version of the St John is no exception. I did notice that in the opening chorus the chorus and the orchestra have differences in music than the "standard" version that we normally hear is that the version from ?
More from "J.S. Bach: Johannes-Passion (St John Passion)" album
You can hear the difference, especially in the sopranos and bass' right before they sing "Show us by thy passion" right after the first "even in times of deepest lowliness" part. Do you know what version this is? Hold that thought. In BMM, the placement of x marks in the score has also been interpreted as supportive of association of BACH-like motifs with the cross.
Perhaps the most scholarly creditable and mercifully concise! Bach: Life and Work, p.
- Johannespassion, BWV 245 (Bach, Johann Sebastian).
- Twos Fine...Threes Divine?
- Johannes Passion BWV 245.
- The Book of Jubilees?
- Cookies on the BBC website!
- Popular Songs by Marc Minkowski.
He [J. I do not see that Wolff mentioned it in J. Bach: The Learned Musician, but perhaps it is there without indexing. Note especially: 1 Bach J. I could easily place four musical notes in the design and see a circulatio of sorts, especially on Easter evening.
See also archived BCW discussion, re BWV 62, ten skewered shrimp two skewers arranged on the plate in the form of an oblong cross. An enjoyable and amusing to me, anyway exchange, from a few years ago. Geck pays special attention, with appropriate balance of respect and skepticism, to numerology gematria in Bach studies.
I guess I will have to read the book, before any further comments. Sample entries: p. Hard for me to imagine that Bach did not feel the same.
Johannespassion - rekoworamo.ml
If Bach did "sign his name" in numbers, it may be his personal way of saying, "I, J. Bach, identify myself personally with the believers in the chorales who bring the Passion of Christ into their lives. I would say Gardiner has the final version agreeing with my Eulenberg score - the soprano part with the dotted rhythm on the 2 nd , 3 rd , and 4 th notes of that bar and some other places, as you say sounds more animated and impressive than the score followed at that point by Suzuki.
Gardiner has some extra-expressive moments, such as a strong dynamic contrast between "even in the greatest lowliness" piano and "is exalted" forte. Very fine music. Add to this the symmetrical disposition of the keys in all forty movements as grouped into nine tonal blocks; the order is: flats -Sharps-natural-flats-Sharps-flats-natural-Sharps-flats The whole is an elaborate analysis over 30 pages with many additional points of interest as to the relation between modulations and the text. Interestingly the final Chorale "Ach Herr lass dein leib Engelein" does not fit the chiastic pattern but acts as a postlude as does the alternate ending with the setting of "O Lamm Gottes": the change could be made without violating the symmetry of the rest.
Zweiter Teil. Wenn mich falsche Zungen stechen". CD 5: Bach, J. CD 6: Bach, J.
John Passion. Johannes-Passion, BWV Part One. Jesum von Nazareth Jesus spricht zu ihnen Jesus antwortete". Part Two. CD 7: Bach, J. CD 8: Bach, J. Kyrie: No. Kyrie Eleison I. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison II. Gloria in excelsis Deo. Et in terra pax. Laudamus te.
Gratias agimus tibi.