She is entitled to her winnings. The case has echoes of a previous dispute involving Barney Curley, an Irish gambler and racehorse trainer. After legal action was instigated, that company eventually paid out in full. We are not prepared to comment further whilst litigation is ongoing. M s Coates, 49, a mother-of-five launched the business with her brother John Coates. The alleged refusal of online betting companies to honour wagers is now subjected to a joint investigation by the Gambling Commission and the Competition and Markets Authority.
We urge you to turn off your ad blocker for The Telegraph website so that you can continue to access our quality content in the future. Visit our adblocking instructions page. Telegraph News. We've noticed you're adblocking. It took Texas to prosecute and convict him for child rape. I respect your right to disagree, but as a retired victim advocate, my sympathy is for the abused women in the FLDS. I could go on for hours! Read Under The Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer great book goes back to civil war era and uncovers the violence and secrets mormons dont want you to know.
Also, lookup Judge Haynes exposed himself in public bathrooms uncovered by an undercover he exposed himself to Justice K. Also in utah the church tells members not to read the news or nonfiction anything that will make them smart. Or think for themselves or give them autonomy. Goes through a police auction The men gang up on the women here even if the woman is right if its a mormon theyll seem nice at first but as soon as you defend yourself to their disrespect all the others anyone around whos male they gang up on the woman. You can watch a woman and kids be beatup here and noone does a thing its sick and disgusting The white dispatchers will take a report but mexicans wont.
I need to make something very clear. Polygamy was practiced for one reason only when it began early on in the church. Much of the church was targeted and many men were killed leaving behind the need for women and their children to have a breadwinner and caretaker. Only the most righteous men were encouraged just about every source that is out there stating that all men were encouraged to join polygamy, simply not true to practice a marriage that would in fact save families from being without a father and the dysfunctional practices that involves from present day statistics. So your account is just inaccurate.
There are many scholars, not Mormon, that have shed the truthful light on this and many other misconceptions about the Mormon Christian religion. I encourage you to seek out the truth and look beyond quick articles and biased works. These are of their own sect and have removed themselves from the church.
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The bigotry that Mormons experience is a direct result of the bigotry they impose upon advocates of gay marriage. Mormons fighting gay marriage with their non-taxed temple money is well-documented. Unfortunately, bigotry is the only language they understand. I will gladly accept polygamy over bigotry and stupidity. Until Mormons accept that their ways are lunacy, I will stick with the same bigotry that they use with such ease.
I find this incredibly disrespectful.
Why We’re Afraid of Mormons
We also consider marriage a sacred thing, and it has, until recent years, been accepted as something of traditional significance and as well as of moral significance. We consider homosexual relations, or any relation outside of marriage. My dad is a bishop. I have plenty of gay friends, each of which I love and respect, but when societal views interfere with our religious freedoms and retainment of morals, I feel a responsibility to object.
Aubrey, the same constitution that prevents your religion from dictating how people outside your church regard marriage also protects your religion from being forced into doing anything it does not believe in. So long as Church and State remain separate, no Mormon bishop will ever be forced to conduct a same sex marriage.
So long as we ALL have the freedom of religion and freedom FROM it , no government or special interest group will ever be able to force same sex marriages within your temples. Ironically, legalization of same-sex marriages actually does more to protect your religion, in my view. Mormonism is a minority religion, after all. If other denominations got together and decided to impose their political might on minority religions that they view as a threat , Mormons would be screwed.
Kent, Have you heard the term a slippery slope? With each change in law and policy, norms that are become norms that were. You say That separation of church and state will protect this from happening. That is simply not true. Can you say today that your statement is correct. I would say no. Your statement about it helping religion is a false statement. What about miracles?
Jesus formed miricles, did he not? Never been to church or talked about God much. I believed in God, but had lack of faith in him until my daughter started talking about God, and what it was like to be in heaven before we were born.
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She talked of the Book of Life, and oh so much more. Love one another and forgive.. We all have a choice to get along, be happy, do what is right. Nobody has the strength or the power to make you feel the way they want you to feel. You have the choice and it is yours alone. We all need to own up to our own wrongdoings, and try to do our best with what we have.
Learn be happy with what you have, and not sad for the things you have not. We need opposition so I guess since I believe in God, I have to believe in Satan as well, but am I worried about where I will go when I pass this world? I think, so many people are so in tune on the Mormons, that they forgot, we are all Humans, there are so many religions out there! Why the Mormons? Because of Romney running for a president! Well U think all the Mormons are for him? I myself not for him, and You all forgot! We all believed! Jesus is our Saviour! Pray n ask for forGiveness, stop being ignorant toward the Mormons, a lot of us are very down to earth, caring, loving, respectful, concern, helping, spiritually, prayerfully, kindness, people you will ever get to know, and knowing..
Or what religion you are! We are all equal in the eye of Our Heavenly Father!.. And Who ever does in their Lives! Is their own doing and their own Action.. People Stop pointing fingers to Whomever they want to Discredited! Get a Life! Should never be Afraid toward the Mormons. Thank You…. I have been looking for a comment like this, everything else is so negative!
Yes, thank you!! I completely agree. I just feel like I have to add some things. And one is as against them as they are to Mormons.
There are good and bad people out there no matter their religion. I personly think that judging people on their religion is dumb and that you should judge them on their actions and not judge the religion off of those actions. You should be afraid if youre not a member. Although men do hold priesthood powers in Mormonism, a family cant be had without women, and the family is central to Mormonism.
So next time you go bashing on a religion you should study and learn about that religion. You are on of the people that this article was written for. We have articles of faith, small passages that tell you a lot about what we do. We are a christian religion, and we have another scriptural book. It is culural, as specific areas of the world have culture, and specific people do.
We do not scilence voices, in fact we ask for all sorts of people to talk to us, and to travel to talk to others. I am currently enrolled at the Univ of Utah and i can tell you that there are plenty of polygamist colonies still around out here and I know several students who come from that life. Matt- Yes, it is true that the Church in had to be coerced strongly into giving up polygamy. They were terrified of what that would mean for their families. At the time, many members were okay with the thought of no future polygamous marriages, but what did it mean for the existing ones?
It had become illegal for a man to be in the same room as his wife. How would you like being told that you could never see your wife or children again? Would you jump for joy and sign the dotted line? Marriage and family are central tenets of the LDS faith. They loved their wives. They adored their children. They wanted to be a part of their lives. And somehow you see that as a negative and something to tar all current Mormons with? I think that was a very kind, compassionate, and entirely understandable position for them.
However, I think you would be severely hard pressed to find a modern Mormon that was interested in bringing the practice back to the Church. In fact, we are asked in an interview by our congregational leaders every other year if we support polygamous groups. It is not a supported opinion. And others. Apparently all of u are not aware of the real beliefs of LDS. Latter Day Saint men respect and love their spouses.
Would never degrade them the way you are talking about. Whether it be in UT or any other state. You want to know the truth, contact the missionaries. They can set you straight and maybe you might even feel the spirit tell you that what you are hearing is correct. Without knowing history of the church, you could easily be persuaded by others that have no factual information based on rumor, and partial facts. Just like small children that pick up profanity, it being negative and easy to say. I feel as adults we do the same thing on different topics disagree. A: We tell people that only they can decide whether they believe in the church or not, which is true!
And if they decide not, No hard feelings! I disagree that this article is thoughtful or intelligent, it reflects a completely false view of Mormons and asserts that they are victims of untruths related to historical facts. Come live here in Utah ans see the manipulation and interference in our community by the LDS and the rest of the ignorant followers.
If this lady got her PHD then it should be invalidated. I agree with the article and wish more people were educated on the history of discrimination against church members and why it exists. Surveys have shown that an atheist candidate for U. Is there some reason why an individual with a different, yet equally unacceptable idea about a god, or many gods, should not be scrutinized for unproven mysteries they choose to accept as a personal truth?
Anyone who. By all means, go to mormon. Then visit exmormon. To learn what any organization teaches or represents, you have to go to the source — the organization itself. Anything else would only be heresay and biased, personal opinion. I certainly hope no one in America is shallow enough to base their vote for President of the U. Mormons are biased in favor of Mormonism, main-stream Protestants are biased in favor of main-stream Protestantism. Atheists are biased in favor of Atheism. It would be foolish for anyone to presume they are devoid of bias.
However, since biased sources of information are all we have to work with, it is best to proceed by simply taking that bias into account and trying to collect the primary-source information. Furthermore, all organizations have unsavory elements E. Church congregants who gossip behind your back, political fraud in the white house, mounting student debt for BU students, etc… , but those organizations are unlikely to tell you about the unsavory elements upfront because they want to present themselves positively.
Of course those students will be biased by heaps of student loans and a potentially daunting future, but that does not make their case illegitimate. I am a Mormon cultural or middle-way , and I recommend mormonthink. There are many different belief levels of Mormons. Obviously, most ex-mormons will have a negative bias, and most actively practicing Mormons will have a positive bias. Many Mormon fans of Mormonthink. Go to en. Please, do not try to represent a biased anti-Mormon site as somehow unbiased.
They clearly are not. For example David likes to breath heavily and thrust himself up and down upon children. Creeper right? But what if David is a life guard performing CPR on a child who is not breathing after nealry drowning? Well, if you want a simple direct answer, it calls into question the intelligence and gullability of that individual. You should absolutely consult ex-Catholics and ex-Baptists about those religions. Plenty of crazy BS from all of them. I think then you would be implying that Ken Dahl is crazy. Mormons are good at deflecting information they choose not to deal with.
The truth is Mr. No one responding could argue that, so they choose to divert your attention to what he was associated with, hoping they could convince, the reader he was misinformed. So argue facts if you going to give Mr. Dahl a hard time you have no idea what it takes to be an ex-Mormon. Just sayin. And where they are not accurate, well, those are just pernicious lies masquerading as accuracies. And all his comments are aimed at hurting the LDS church. There is only one standard to really judge the LDS church — go and visit one yourself!
See the people, ask them questions, hear the range of answers, and be prepared to challenge yourself in your assumptions. You control the pace of the research, and if you do not like it or get uncomfortable, you can leave at anytime. But at least you will know much more than you ever will just by reading the opinion of others.
Same goes for the Book of Mormon. Those answers may come as thoughts, words, or feelings, but when they do, you will recognize them for what they are: words from the Holy Ghost testifying of the truth of what you are reading. The belief system of an individual, however solid or absurd, speaks volumes about their character and value system. Ken, all religions read like nonsense to unbelievers. Is it reasonable to believe that salvation depends on whether or not one consumes certain animals or combines certain food products?
Christianity absolutely claims to be the only truth, to the exclusion of other religions. Christianson, well stated. I was going to say something similar and then read your thoughtful response. Many thanks. Ken, I think you forget…we are 14 million strong and growing fast. Mormons will not be stopped by someone with small, demeaning, innaccurate, ugly thoughts like yours.
You really sound like you have personal problems and hate yourself. I hope you find more worthwhile things to do in your life. You think your snide remarks will change any of that? Even states have ordered our extermination…Hey! So Ken…in the end. Save yourself some study time by doing your homework instead of writing ignorant things on here. Do you really think at this point in time that a Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, or anyone of any faith other than Christianity could be elected president of the US regardless of their qualifications?
This seems obviously hypocritical to me when these same churches not just LDS campaign for the banning of gay marriage, for example. I have the same problem with the Catholic Church or any church that spreads hate. The reason why my church got so involved is because prop 8 was a moral issue. We push for anything that betters the community morally. But what we do not get involved in is political parties. The reason why we are against gay marriage and gay acts in general is because we believe that marriage is a very sacred covenant towards god and the between the spouses.
And should only be done between a man and a woman. We also believe in a pre-mortal life and when were spirits we had a gender already with us. Thus a man acting like woman or woman acting like man is wrong and is a mockery to god. I cannot over state how sacred marriage is to our religion. We do not hate gays we hate the sin not the person. For more information try this website. This would be true if the organization itself wanted to be identified as unique entity.
Yes they are like a Chameleon changing colors based upon who they are talking to. If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please note the real name of the Mormon Church were to present itself as Christian, and not actually be Christian, how many converts do you think would stay in the Church, after finding out they were duped into thinking the Church is Christian? I am a convert of many years, and I can guarantee any and all that this church is a Christian Church. If it were not, I simply would not be a member.
Yes, you should absolutely talk to ex-catholics and ex-baptists. Your distorted representation of the faith I believe appears designed to discount the merits of the individual without considering their actual position on a given issue. You should know better. On this basis, honest people from any political persuasion should be anxious to see a Mormon candidate from their party elected.
Mormons are absolutely Christians. A Christian, by definition, is someone who believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ, believes that Christ is their Savior and the Redeemer of mankind. They stand with conviction to declare the Jesus is the Christ and give a lot of attention to spreading His gospel throughout the world.
Furthermore, they provide humanitarian efforts throughout the world that are unparalleled by other large service organizations and non-profits. Service is a central concept of the Mormon belief system that stems from Christs teachings.
The church does nothing to hurt humanity or individuals. In other words, I am a Mormon. I have learned many things about Jesus Christ while attending meetings there, and one day after partaking the emblems of the Sacrament I wrote the following. I hope you like it, and that you and all others who read this will realize that Mormons are indeed Christians. Sacred are the things of Christ; so great the price he paid. Reverently I ponder how his life he freely gave. I promise to remember him; my Savior ever more.
Sacred are the things of Christ; I eat the broken bread. I recall his body bruised; to the cross how he was led. I promise to forsake my sins; I plead forgiveness now. I feel my burdens lift from me; I make this holy vow. Sacred are the things of Christ; I take and drink the cup. In Gethsemane he bled; On the cross they raised him up. He is my Covenant Father now; Oh, praise his saving grace. Justin, the Bible calls Jesus the Son of God. The Bible also says that all humans are children of God, and therefore heirs and jonit heirs with Christ.
That makes Jesus and all humans brothers and sisters, unless you want to add or take away from the words of the Bible. Furthermore, many of the early Christian fathers wrote that God became man to teach man how to become god. You are right that most western Christian sects do not believe these things.
I understand that as LDS you want to take pieces of scripture and twist them to fit Josephs theology. This is not Christian theology at all and is not a correct understanding of the passage if you study it. Romans is Paul telling the Jews they were not part of gods new order John They had not been born again with regenerated eyes. To be part of this family you have to be in Christ, associated and identified with even His sufferings that you may share in His glory.
We are joint heirs if we are born again. We will inherit the kingdom of heaven. I do not respond to belittle you. In fact I have a great amount of love for you and I want you to find freedom in a world without legalism. Don take my word for it. I will name a few of your own. You also mention that many of the early christian fathers wrote that god became a man to teach… You are correct it was called Arianism and it was abolished and swept off the face off the earth because it was a heresy.
Last, you are telling me that god almighty could not preserve the words of his prophets and Jesus so he had to have a court documented occult treasure hunter lead a restoration that still has only 10 million members 4 million active. Please study and research your faith and its history. The Joseph Smith quote about God once being like us and we having the potential to become like him is being misused. God is perfected in his attributes and character. Jesus asks his disciples to be perfect like God is. Thus through Grace, we too will become perfect. Romans The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Ok Ken, so you listed a bunch of weird things Mormons believe. He hates when I do that stuff! Compare these standard mainstream Christian beliefs with any of the alleged Mormon beliefs on the list provided by Ken Dahl. Romney and Mormons want to be considered Christian to gain the right wing Christian vote. They cannot do that if they are show for what they really are which is no different than the branch dividiens.
Justin, you have missed the entire point. You are not a Christian. You do not live the Christian gospel. You repeat something you heard your two-bit pastor say. Thomas you may be right. I may not be a christian in your eyes. I am a Jesus follower and Jesus called a viper a viper. I also might add that we are commanded to defend the faith. I have no anger with you or any other but will defend the faith. I am not sure what a two-bit pastor is, but please study the Bible and research any faith that takes away from the bible and you will see that they just dont hold any weight. The apostle Paul understood the importance of apologetics in his ministry to the Gentiles.
Paul was not only ready to preach the gospel, but he was ready to defend the gospel as well Phil. In this context, Paul is in effect saying that he is ready to stand up for the true gospel amid some who were preaching Christ with selfish, insincere motives. Like Paul, it is incumbent on us as Christians to be ready, willing, and able to defend the true gospel of Christ albeit many have embraced a distorted gospel of Christ that cannot save Gal.
If you believe in Buddha, you are a Buddhist. If you believe in Vishnu, you are a Hindu. If you believe in the prophet Mohammed, you are a Muslim. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are a Christian. Harry Reed is a Mormon. Should he be allowed to continue as Senate President? Does his religion allow him to think for himself. He is a Mormon. Shame on him…….
This is ridiculous. Nice red herring to keep bringing up….. What is at mormon. But what you are talking about is extremely sacred and you are ruining how sacred such things are but I will address them. Garden of Eden in Independence, Missouri Independence, Missouri is probably the least understood topics in my church.
Prophets have even said that it is one of the least understood topics. Right here are some very deep stuff that most members do not understand. Temple complex at Independence Missouri: All god has done he has just specified place. Adam Ondi Ahmin is place that is kept ready at all times the missionaries that maintain this huge amounts of acreage report directly to the prophet.
Polygamy: Here is the short answer. Long answer Your sealed to your first wife when she dies and you fall in love and get remarried and you die. According to what you believe to be right the man would have to choose between to do. If that happened to me I would have a hard time choosing because I would probably love them both. But we do not pratice it on the earth today. Blacks being cursed: No we do not believe that either. I do not know why blacks did not get the priesthood and other prophets before blacks got the priesthood did not understand either.
It is just like in the bible with Jews being taught first then the gentiles. We do not know why the gentiles did not get the gospel only that they could not get the gospel. In fact Mormons when we were getting kicked out one of the main reason why we kicked out of Missouri was because we would unbalance the vote and support and abolitionist. We respect Native Americans to one of the earliest missions of the church was mission to the Native Americans and to this day they are still able to receive the priesthood as long as they live worthy for it.
I mean what boy would lie about what at the time sounded absurd. I mean if he wanted more followers he could have told them that the trinity showed up. Why would a man die for a lie? Why would a man lead his pepole through some of the most horrible trials for a lie? Why would a man suffer such adversity for a lie? A liar would realize it is not worth the trouble and try to worm himself out of the situation. But Joseph Smith stood tall and took on the adversities he was given. One time some men burst into his room took him from his wife and children. Left the door open and killed one of his babies through exposure.
He had hot tar painted all over him and feathers on him to further humiliate him. They also attempted to poison him when they tried to stuff it in his mouth he clenched his teeth and they broke the vial but no poison made it into his system. When he walked in his house his wife tried to remove the tar. But tar when it cools does not easily come off so while it came off it took painful chunks of flesh off of him.
When morning came he walked outside and preached of Jesus recognizing the men who did this act to him in the audience. A liar would not do that. A liar would not have walked out and preached knowing he and his family would suffer. How could a man who barely knew how to form a sentence let alone a book produce a book that has way more writing styles than any book ever written? How could a man who could only write his name write a book that added more words to the English language than Shakespeare.
How could a man who had the education of a 5th grader write a dual history of two distinct cultures that the world did not even know about. I mean if it is fake it is some pretty darn elaborate fiction way beyond the capacity of a 5th grader. How could a man who was alive at the time that medical science was so primitive that no one knew about germs and if you washed your hands after every patient you would be able to double their chances of living. Reveal a lifestyle which is now the suggested lifestyle by modern science. This man was not delusional or liar because a liar would have gave in a long time ago.
All that we know is in the pearl of great price. It is like the Quantum physics and very advanced science except this is religous quantum physics. The Masonic handshake is a very sacred part of the Endowment. The Endowment is to give pepole knowledge of the past i. The present Gods plan for us. The future Second coming. This stuff is so sacred that we do not mention this stuff outside the temple. It is not secret we urge every member to live worthy to receive a temple recommend and pull out their endowments. And as God is Man will become.
I mean does a lion cub turn into a zebra no it becomes into an adult lion. The Three Nephites were taken up because God wanted an apostasy for his children. Latter God decided it was time for prophets so thus came Joseph Smith. Either you are an ex-member who is trying to be Korihor like and trying to bring down the church if you are one of these people.
Keep this quote in mind this quote. The Lord Almighty so orders it. Also keep in mind that it is never to late to come back and any ward would welcome you back like family.
BU-trained scholar says uninformed prejudice abounds
If you showed up in my ward me and my ward would. If your a person who does not fully understand what your talking about or you do not know where to find the truth and you keep on running into hateful ex Mormon sites. Try Mormon. Jonathan, I suspect you will one day better understand your religion. Many of your comments hold errors. For starters Joseph Smith, in his own words, says he was 16 years old when this supposed visitation occurred. Mormons were breaking the law, not honoring their agreement with the state and harboring fugitives.
That is why they were expelled from Missouri. The Mormon church has put lipstick on a pig with their sanitized and rewritten history. Just know. Some are good and true. Some, however, are evil and filled with lies. There are quite a few people who think that to get both sides of the story they should go to Exmormon sites. Heck even some of the things are hidden in lies. The Mountain Meadow Massacre. Everyone knows about this. One it was not organized by the top leadership and two not everyone was killed or so to say brutally murdered. It was actually caused by this said group passing through one of the Mormon towns in Utah.
They were so pissed with the mormons that they said when they made it to California they would bring back an army to make them trade and stuff like that. They spared them and eventually returned them to their families. This is just one of many examples I can choose from. And even though this is actually the true account of what happened I bet there will still be people who see this and will disagree with me.
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But if you are a religious person who writes the evil lies on this and other articles I only have one thing to say for you. For every time you do you get that much closer to sring Satan rather then Jesus. As Ken Dahl noted in his comments, traditionally, Mormons excluded Black people because they were considered descendants of Ham and cursed with dark skin. In more recent times, Mormons, perhaps to increase their membership, began reaching out and recruiting Black people. Most African Americans remain uncomfortable with this history.
I thought the article was very good and a significant contribution even though this concern was omitted. Going to exmormon. Is this depiction fair? I gave some accurate info but that a lot of misleading info as well. The mix in false ino with some truth and those without knowledge of true LDS doctrine and practice are deceived. They lie in wait to deceive Eph. I like your post Ken. I see where everyone is coming from who has replied to your post. So now I am going to give my opinion. I do not vote for a politician based on their religion preference, I vote for what they stand for in helping this country.
I do not like Obama, never have and never will. I think this man has led America in to the depths of hell and if he is re-elected will just continue that journey. I feel he is the better candidate for presidency. We have had Christian presidents in our history and I am pretty sure not every American voting for them were thrilled about that, but they probably voted for that person because of the stand that person took for America; and that is what is important.
I wish people would quit focusing on a candidates religion and the negative media the opposite candidate puts out there on them. I want to know what a candidate is going to do to help this country, especially now. Read and Learn what The Mormon religion is all about! Before you all making any remarks about it…. Thank you for this remarkably perceptive analysis. The basis for prejudice against Mormons is ignorance. Most people regard the Mormons as a blank slate on which they project their favorite fears about religious minorities. Liberals think that any dedicated religioys believers are mindless robots.
Conservative Evangelicals think Mormons are faux Christians conducting a vast conspiracy to drag real Christians to hell. Neither group gives Mormons credit for individual intelligence or moral reflection, and assume Mormon animosity toward themselves. The fact that Mormons are a bit betterneducated than average, that they are overrepresented in academia, that Mormons with more education tend to be even more loyal to their religion, that Mormons have a more positive view toward people of other faiths—that is, are less religioysly prejudiced—than any other denomination, are simple facts of which their critics are totally ignorant.
The criticsnat both extremes of the religioys spectrum only know one or two things about Mormons, and then extrapolate an entire bogeyman out of that. The most severe anti-Mormons at both ends are willing to invest vast amounts of time and rhetoric attacking Mormonism, but very little actually learning how Mormons themselves think. Their shared rationale is, this one thing I know about Mormons is so hateful to me, I do not want to waste any of my time gaining a sympathetic understanding of them.
And the bottom line at both extremes is the determination to obliterate Mormons and their beliefs from society, to deny them the opportunity to participate in discussions about religion or public polucy in any forum controlled by the critics, and thus create a vicioys circle of prejudice reinforcing ignorance, which feeds prejudice. I know very little about Mormonism but if people are discussing their beliefs and practices and how they have or have not evolved over time we would be remiss not to mention one of their recent practices that has lately emerged, namely that the Mormons have been obtaining lists of deceased Jews and posthumously baptising them.
Specifically, the practice has been discouraged, condemned, and can even lead to negative consequences for the members involved. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20, Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel.
Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the agreement. But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the agreement. Ken, this is the first thing I thought of after reading this article. Regardless of the official policy, it seems to have still gone on after the agreement. Seems like Ken did check his facts Carl. In terms of history and religion, 17 years ago would still be recent. Are we supposed to discount an event just because it happened 15, 20, or 50 years ago? It still reflects on the organization. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations.
The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said. And the official response to Mr. There appears to be some disagreement on the interpretation of the agreement between the Mormons and the Jews. Perhaps an additional agreement is needed to clarify. One thing, however, is clear. The church does not condone such actions and can and does revoke database rights from those who violate the policies.
Should the church do more to prevent it? Probably yes. There could be some form of filter that detects prohibitted names and at a minimum flags them for review before they are allowed to proceed. Is the church obligated to do such? There is no honest way I could say yes or no, but it appears to me that the answer is no.
A clarifying agreement would be needed to make it certain one way or the other. As a member, I would not be against the idea of a filter like I described. Did they check to make sure there was or was not consent from the those who have decended from them?
If there was relational consent, then they were in agreement…. OMG, maybe some day thay will baptise Baptists as well…. Oh yeah, they already are. The Mormon practice of proxy ordinances for deceased individuals is keeping with their desire and value to see all of humanity receive every blessing God has in store for them. They are not closing doors on the past identities of those they do proxy work for, they open the door of opportunity to others.
It is a selfless kindness that is unbelievably being used as a political pawn of contention to drive a wedge where none should exist. If anyone from any religion wants to go out of their way to perform some rite on my behalf so that I can get access to all that God has for me, I would never complain! Even if that website were sincere, I think most Mormons would feel that it could have no impact on them. There are several reasons for this:. Power: Again, most people would contend that they have no power to actually cause a change even if they somehow had the authority.
The power behind Mormon baptisms is also questioned. Agency: Even with both authority and power, Mormons believe strongly in agency i. The same idea applies to Mormon proxy baptisms. The same three ideas apply to any group attempting to postumously convert any other group. If they are trying to help you reach heaven or send you to a significantly hotter place, it will make no difference. This is one reason why the church has any agreement at all with any Jews. If you think about it, the church is under no legal or other obligations to care about offending anyone.
If they wanted to, they could simply continue without caring what anyone else thinks of them. However, they work out agreements like the one in instead. John and Carl- first of all Carl whether the Mormon church has followed its agreement with Jewish organizations is bad enough—the point is that they baptized deceased jews who of course could not defend themselves and they baptized Holocaust jewish victims who were destroyed for being jewish, many of whom enjoyed and believed in their religion and culture and you would imagine after suffering horrible atrocities for their identities and beliefs and paying the ultimate price for them, do not want to be listed in some Mormon genealogy as baptized Mormons.
The point is that as recently as jewish organizations had to point out to the Mormon church that this practice was wrong and offensive otherwise they never would have got it or stopped it or even thought about it. I have to agree with Carl about this topic. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has no legal obligation to change its policies about baptism for the dead but do so out of respect and at the request of those who feel their rights of religion are being imposed upon.
There are two practices of the church that should be made aware to those who are having a problem with baptisms for the dead. Before a baptism for the dead is to be submitted. A deceased person is supposed to have been deceased for more than 90 years, or the submitter should get permission from kin before a baptism is submitted. The Church practices a policy that it teaches the members the rules that they should follow and then let the people mostly govern themselves.
This means that rule 1 is in place, members of the church have been told about it, and should follow it. So I think we need to clear something up here. Baptisms for the dead are indeed a service, and a service that is not considered by anyone to be binding upon an unwilling individual. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that baptisms for the dead, just like baptisms of the living, are only of force when the individual in question accepts the ordinance.
The record that is kept simply shows that their work has been done. That is, as a church. The church is made of individuals. And the individuals conduct the work of temple ordinances, including baptism for the dead, on a very personal basis. I say again that we as a Church have done nothing wrong. Consider the fact that automatically assigning nonbelievers to hell after this life with no reprieve has been the general Christian, Islamic, Jewish, etc, tradition for millennia.
Given the reasoned analysis of modern mormonism given by Dr. Hutchison-Jones, the opening tone of the article is puzzling. Opening with a flippent remark about Mormon cultural practices is pretty much an ethnic slur. Hutchison-Jones specifically refutes that very ignorance. Any practicing Mormon who embraces polygamy is excommunicated. These polygamists belong to an entirely separate religion that is generally disliked by LDS. Even a simple google search could have easily revealed this fact.
Sound familiar? Just like mainstream LDS want to be called Christians while others object , you have no right to define others religious identification. That Catholics cannot say that someone who calls himself catholic but who in actuality is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, is not catholic? Your comment is nonsensical. Jews are by matter of lineage and birth always Jews. If you understood anything about the Jewish heritage you would know that. Steve, people can convert to Judaism. This is especially true in an organization like the Catholic Church which has so much structure.
Your statements about Mormon polygamy are misleading. It is true that polygamy is not allowed to be practiced by living Mormons, but it is very much still a believed practice my fellow Mormons who attend the temple and have had a spouse die can confirm , and polygamy is still included in official Mormon doctrine Doctrine and Covenants section I think both Mormons and non Mormons should look at why Polygamy was started.
Joesph Smith the Mormon Profit practice polygamy and took on wives at the age of 15 and while his friends were away he would tell their wives God wants you to marry me. Joesph Smith was a horn dog. That is why polygamy is in the Mormon church to begin with.
Life Application Study Bible: NIV by Anonymous
It was also a means of providing for those women at a time when marriage was a highly valued institution in our society. Proof again, that racism is not the problem it used to be, rather religious intolerance is still the number one issue as it has always been. After all, our country was founded because of religious intolerance. As a minority, I can tell you that Racism is still a problem. Religious intolerance is a problem too. There are lots of problems. Maybe in some parts of the country, and maybe in small circumstances, but I BEG to differ.
This country has come a long way—look at Powell and Sec. Soon, whites will be the minority and Hispanics the majority…will whites be given an advantage in college admissions? How will this be perceived?? Jackson, are you trying to start an argument? But Kathy is right that it still exists. I think especially in a city like Boston you might not see it as much as other cities or parts of the country.
According to Wikipedia, So how soon exactly is this happening? Asian Americans make up 4. The reason is because if you look at average education levels and household incomes they are higher for whites and Asians Americans than for Latinos and African Americans. This is obviously way off topic from the article. Other minorities at BU will say the same. Only those who are on the receiving end of racism get to decide that. Not off topic; KathyBates brought up racism after all. A race base policy. Go beyond wikipedia, which is not a great source anyways.
The birthrate of minorities has surpassed those of whites. And by Hispanics or Hispanic whites, if you wish are expected to surpass non-Hispanic whites in the population. Interesting article.. Instead, they persecute those who believe what they once believed themselves; in Biblical terms they are like Esau in the 25th chapter of Genesis; but they bought into American citizenship that way — and are as immoral as Jacob in denying basic life or liberty without payment. Mormons in Utah do not prosecute polygamists at all. That is the fact. They excommunicate practicing polygamists.
I am unaware of them actively seeking out polygamists, but it is considered a punishable offense within the modern church. John, I appreciate your comment more than most. I am a Mormon, happy and unashamed.